As more red-light cameras go up, one Seattleite makes a case for giving in

That's great that the writer of this piece likes to be surveilled by unseen authority figures, but why is it that the writer never asks who is watching the watchers? Doesn't handing unchecked power over to other individuals usually result in an abuse of that power? Have we learned anything from history? Why no system of checks and balances to ensure that abuse never happens? And how can someone possibly be okay with such a system without demanding these checks and balances be in place at the same time?

I have also gotten a camera ticket and now I avoid that intersection. I have to wander what this does for the local businesses, I rarely go to Renton anymore because of the cameras, between the red light ones and the speed enforcement by the high school [20mph] all the time which is rediculus. I got my ticket if Fife, now I don't buy my gas where I used to and I don't frequent the resturant. This is all because of the red light cameras. It may be extreme to some but I don't have to worry about "big brother" whatching me. My coworker got a speeding ticket for doing 26 in a 25mph camera zone. The revenue they may generate for a city might bit them is the ass when local revenue goes down. My 2 cents.

It sounds to me like the writer wants to be safe in traffic. Running red lights has become the norm, rather than the exception. If cameras are a way to remind people to respect the law then I'm pleased to see more of them. An appeal process is already in place - if you don't want to "test" the appeal process, then stop at the red light.

The cameras are all over America. I got my very first, and last ticket, in Scottsdale, Arizona on HWY 101. That was my photo and I was going way over the speed limit. Since it was my very first ticket in 40 years of driving, I took it to court and lost. My fine was $187 in Arizona. The point is they do slow down traffic and possibly save a few lives, mine included.

My biggest concern with red light cameras, is that I come up to an intersection more concerned about getting a ticket, than being safe. My stress level goes up a bit, and I may second guess myself. I've driven all my life, very safely, but actually don't feel very safe around the cameras. I think what is really necessary is a count down to a yellow. You see this on some walk signals. Possibly the green starts to blink. Some kind of warning should be mandatory if you are going to have a camera at an intersection. That at least can warn the driver to slow down. I'm not sure that slowing down at an intersection is always a good idea, rather than maintaining speed. Every situation is different. I'm concerned about a rear end collision behind me, if I go too slow.
The yellow was originally the warning to the red, but not necessarily illegal to run. Now the driver has to guage where the green is. That is impossible without a warning. The yellow is now debatable whether it is OK to even be in the intersection. You don't know what the camera has in mind. I have yet to get a ticket, but I do tend to stay away from those interesections the way they are set up now.

Is it against the law to drive with a ski mask on?

I got "taxed" by one of these lights. The police even told me they didn't know if my car was ever in the intersection on red--they just caught me on a yellow light. The ticket was almost inconceivable to me--since an acquaintance was killed in a t-bone accident when I was a teenager I've always stopped religiously on yellow. I use the flashing crosswalk signs to judge my approach to intersections so I can stop. We fought the ticket but lost. THe evidence is considered unassailable and we were forced to pay court costs and attrorney fees. Now I've changed my routes to avoid cameras and I have even stopped on green if the crosswalk lights are flashing. It's not worth risking the ticket (we paid over $500!).

Christine's comment .."that she has even stopped on green..." is a good example of how the cameras can make intersections more dangerous, not less. I have seen several fender benders at 15th Ave NW Market St in Ballard caused by people stopping suddenly for no reason. I have changed both my supermarket and my pharmacy away from this intersection and avoid downtown Ballard at all costs.

Isn't the point of the red light cameras to make intersections safer? How is it safer when drivers stop short and cause accidents?

Safer intersections are very easy to implement. INCREASE yellow light timing and put in a pause before the green light. This is simple, effective, and inexpensive to do, unlike red light cameras.

The downside, of course, is no revenue is generated for the city or the red light leasing company. You do know that there is a private company that owns the cameras, right? You do know that they get, typically, HALF of the cost of the ticket, right?

@Janet - the company that owns the cameras in Arizona is in Australia. i.e., the money the company collects doesn't even stay in this country, let alone Arizona. FYI - This fall Arizona voters get to decide on the fate of the cameras state-wide. Looks like the cameras will be coming down.

My reaction to red light cameras? I avoid cities that have that like the plague; I'll shop elsewhere. When I have to encounter one, I drive like a stereotypical Grandma, extra slow, aiming so that the light will turn red well before I reach the intersection. Similarly, I count a few seconds if I have to take a right turn on a red light. IMHO, these cameras are revenue raisers, though, as there are no statewide standards for yellow light time, keeping them in repair, when they're set off as speed cameras, or other abuses such as school cameras that are on at times outside of when children are ordinarily present. My proposed standards: (1) Countdown "Don't Walk/Walk" signs required at all intersections where red-light cameras are deployed; (2) Posting of signage say, a minimum of 300 feet in advance of red-light intersections, a certain font size, includes everything being monitored: red-light and complete stop for right turns; the latter's typically not mentioned, but the biggest revenue raiser. (3) Required that monies garnered by such lights be utilized only for public safety purposes; (4) Setting can be no lower than 20% or 5 mph over the limit, whichever is lower, i.e. 24 mph in a 20 mph zone; (5) Use in school zones can only be during times when children are ordinarily present; (6)
Required maintenance schedule. Cameras where lights are malfunctioning must be turned off until cameras are fixed. (7) Standard delay at lights based on posted speed and topography,with some limits as to how often they could be changed (the city of Edmonds looked at having a camera on westbound 220th at highway 99, uphill and thus slow passage for a truck through an intersection...a 3-second green light at such an intersection would be inappropriate.; (8) Some provision for commercial vehicles, e.g. limited or no fines (e.g. no more than 10%, or $12.40), as they are typically driving a different vehicle each day, e.g. for a bus driver a red light fine exceeds a day's pay (bus drivers, some who are part-timers, pick up a different bus each day, and might only drive a route through, say, Lynnwood once a week...some avoid taking routes by red-light cameras, so long as their seniority is high enough); (9) Decisions to employ such cameras must be made in public session (not in executive session where many cowards have approved their use).

It amazes me that so many people are willing to be watched over by big brother. What ever happened to the right to confront your accuser in a court of law?

Do you people realize how faulty and corrupt many of these "red light camera" companies have proven to be? (many of them make a percentage of tickets given too).

In Bellevue we were hoodwinked into a "trial period" of a few lights near school zones - "for the safety of our children". Now there are more without even a vote. Soon they will be everywhere and after that cameras following you everywhere you go - including your own property.

This is not good people.

In these tough times when public officials can't balance a budget they see the need to legally steal from its' citizens. The money goes into someone's pocket but not towards the city. They are nothing but legalized thugs. Worse than drug dealers and gang members that roam the very same streets these cameras are put on. The joke is on us.

Time to ban the cameras.

They were never put up for highway safety.

As for "accepting" them. NOOOOOOOOOOO

I pig a pig and RLC are SCAM which is STILL A SCAM!

(I hope a few residents, doesn't take much 4 or 5 GO OUT AND PROTEST IT!)

What a totally idiotic story. Was this written by the State of Washington directly? The WA State government is so far out of control. Who do they think they work for? It certainly isn't the people that elected them.

Enough is enough. Orwellian surveillence never solves the problems that try to justify it's use, and only infringes on the liberties of the people with the inevitable systematic abuse that results from such measures.

Why do I feel like I'm living more and more in Soviet Russia?

Next comes tenth-of-a-second yellows. Cha-ching!

"I mean, where is it I'm going in such a hurry? I don't wear a uniform, there are no flashing lights on the roof of my car and I'm not a doctor. Oh, yeah: I'm a writer on my way to a grammatical emergency -- there's some noun/verb agreement that needs attending to. Get out of my way!"

As a fellow writer this line gave me a pretty good chuckle. Indeed, where are we going in such a hurry? If we all learned to slow down a bit more, this would be a non issue. Keep the cameras and hopefully they change other's behaviors just like yours.

What Michael said. If the light turns red, stop.

I actually like the cameras. If you drive safely and follow the rules of the road, you'll never get a ticket from one. It makes me feel safer knowing that people are being extra careful at these intersections. And when the usual idiots block the intersection, or run a red light, they get a ticket and hopefully learn a lesson.

A yellow light is for traffic to clear the intersection when cars are already in it. It's not for gunning it and proceeding through the intersection when you weren't already there when the light turned yellow.

Where is the human factor? There are many extenuating circumstances that could trip a camera - slow pedestrian crossing, or some idiot running through the crosswalk, or another vehicle cutting across your turn lane, or other cars causing gridlock, etc etc.

I've been reading the car mags for a long time. Every so often there's an investigative article on these. There are instances of accidents caused by someone slamming on their brakes at the last second, or have their concentration temporarily distracted by a flash and rear-end someone.

They typically work like this: A municipality has a contract with a for-profit company, who installs the systems where the city tells them to. There's usually little or no cost to the city. Infraction notices are sent out by the company after the photos are reviewed by someone with a little law enforcement experience. Payment is sent directly to the company, who retains 100% of it till the system has been paid for. After that, they retain a % for maintenance and administrative work.

A few municipalities were caught shortening the yellow a bit after installing the system.

The camera takes photos of the license plates, so a "ski mask" won't help. The legal owner is assumed to be driving unless he/she can prove otherwise. These are not reported to DOL (unless you don't respond), so no points on the license.

For about $30 you can get a clear license plate cover which is nearly invisible, but seems to have a visual problem with strobe lights, such as the one you may have on your digital camera. Keeps the plate nice and clean.

Yellow light is the new red light -- perfect! O'Connor has it right. Cameras serve to protect lives and bring red-light runners to justice. In addition, cameras slow drivers down by creating an awareness to approach intersections with caution instead of blowing through them.

"I have seen several fender benders at 15th Ave NW Market St in Ballard caused by people stopping suddenly for no reason. "

You're confused. "People stopping suddenly" does not cause wrecks. "Following too closely" causes wrecks.

So, how does the author of this pro-red-light camera piece address the fact that most red light collisions are NOT due to people entering the intersection 1/10th a second after the light turns red, but instead several seconds or minutes after it turns red and the other direction is already going?

"It makes me feel safer ..."

That does not mean that you ARE safer.

These cameras are a safety tool, not a revenue generator. They are proven to safe lives and decrease accidents - let's remember that and keep our eye on the ball. These cameras are a good thing for our communities, and are an excellent deterrent for violators.

Bravo. These systems really work and the more publicity they get the better they work.

If drivers know they are in place they will just naturally be more careful. No one wants to get a ticket either live or in person.

And remember they work 24 7.

"These cameras are a safety tool, not a revenue generator"

I'd agree with you for officer enforcement, but not this effort run by for-profit companies. For-profit organizations have only one objective: maximize revenue, minimize expenses. And that's OK for manufacturing shoes, cars, etc. Not OK for law enforcement. See my post above.

" They are proven to safe lives and decrease accidents"

Based upon what empirical studies? Can't just state something as fact, and have it be so.

I have no doubt there's some value here, but there's a bunch of risk to the public. I was nipped once by a speeder camera. Said I was going 34 in a 20 zone. The minute I saw the flash I looked at my dash, I was going about 21. But I was at the mercy of the technology, with neither the expertise nor the resources to dispute it. It's a zone I've been thru hundreds of times B4, well aware of the risk. I was there, the company from AZ who ticketed me and collected the $$ wasn't.

Seattle drivers have a reputation for being courteous and law abiding. I have hated driving in other places where traffic lights and stop signs and the rules of the road are ignored completely. However, our increasing urbanization and the influx of foreigners (by which I include folks from places like NY, MA, CA), is gradually eroding our tradition of vehicular civility. I think of these red light cameras as a much needed and cost effective measure for reinforcing a respect for traffic rules, rules which exist for a good reason. If you think it is okay to run a red light "just a little bit", next you will run it just just a little bit more... Perhaps I can see where this will lead to because I have had the displeasure to have lived in such places.

Just like the writer said, "Amazing how a $75 ticket and incriminating photos will change how you approach an intersection". That's the point and we all benefit from it. Keep the cameras in place and our roads safe!

This is really great. It's all about personal responsibility. If you get caught you pay the fine. Simple as that. And spare me the "big brother" arguments. Don't be afraid of technology. If these cameras can make people stop and think before gunning their car through a red light then I'm all for them.

Sean- great piece. The cameras did exactly what they were supposed to do- change your behavior. That keeps everyone safer and reduces accidents. Good piece!

So is it Guilty until Proven Innocent for Pulu? Somehow I don`t think any of you`d be acting so tough on the internet if the suspect was someone you cared about.

Where is Tim Eyeman when you really need him...??

New Concept. Instead of trying to beat the lights why not try driving defensively and anticipating the change. If you plan on stopping when you have a llight change you won't get a ticket.

These cameras are creepy. There is absolutely a "Big Brother" quality to them. I think safety at intersections is a great goal, but there are better, less de-humanizing ways of achieving this. If there was a petition to remove these cameras from the City of Seattle, I would sign it in a heartbeat.

It’s not about giving it, it’s about doing the right thing and obeying traffic laws.

No more dodging pedestrians in crosswalks or getting caught in an intersection when the opposing light turns green. Now I typically slow to a stop, sip some coffee, open the window for my dog and wave to the angry guy behind me who hoped we would both squeak through that yellow light.

Exactly the problem. These traffic lights cause people to forget how to drive.

FACT: YOU DO NOT GET A RED LIGHT TICKET IF YOU'RE IN THE INTERSECTION WHEN THE LIGHT GOES RED.

The red light camer in my neighborhood has turned everyone into total imbiciles behind a wheel. In an unprotected left turn situation, often you MUST move to the center of the intersection while the light is green, then when the intersection clears as the light goes yellow, start to move as the light goes red.

Unfortunately, now every dimwit that was able to acquire a license believes they must sit behind the crosswalk on an unprotected left, wait for the traffic to clear, and if the light goes red, they will THEORETICALLY NEVER MAKE IT THROUGH THE LIGHT.

As a result, the intersection where I live now sees a larger number of tentative and false starts, plus panic surges through the light. This has decreased safety, not increased it.

Most of the driving we do takes place within the context of the honor system. There just aren't enough cops in the world to monitor the miles and miles of highway upon which we speed, pass, or park -- legally or otherwise.

Most of what we do in life takes place within the honor system. That's why we get uncomfortable when the government wants to spread warrantless wiretaps throughout the world with the promise of "If you have nothing to hide, then you don't have anything to worry about if we listen to your phonecalls, read your emails and track your cell phone".

i had the very same experience with the very same outcome! The ticket was the first I had received since I was a teenager and I was beyond embarrassed that my face filled the picture so blatantly!!

My mentality changed immediately and has lasted since then. i am more cognizant of my driving behaviors and more consistent with obeying the traffic laws that i used to blatantly disregard.

The cameras change behavior that really is unsafe.